Friday, February 18, 2005

The 3-4 Defense...



Is the 3-4 defense over rated? Is it just a bandwagon in the beggining since the Pats have won with it. The Denver Broncos are willing to get rid of there best defensive lineman Trevor Pryce to transform into the new 3-4. The Broncos will need to make some off season moves to get the best out of that defense because personel is important to making it succeed. 3-4 or 4-3? Over hyped or not? What does Denver need to do in the off season to make it work? Those are the questions...

45 Comments:

Blogger Steve said...

Over-hyped, because people like you Red keep bringing it up. Look, it's a great defense, you can do a lot as far as hiding blitz packages, but you have to remember, this is the NFL and the offensive teams are going to learn how to defend the 3-4. Peyton Manning scorched one of the best 3-4 defenses in the league last season when they beat San Diego. The Patriots aren't a base 3-4 defense either, they run both the 4-3 and 3-4 and they run both effectively. If a team can consistantly run both, they will have an advantage.

10:08 AM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

For a 3-4 D to work, you need a top-notch linebacking crew. Fortunately for the Broncos, they've got one.

nn

10:14 AM  
Blogger RED said...

Denver has one of the best linebacker crews in the NFL so why not get 4 of them out there on the field and tape there ears back and let em go wild. Shoot this is how it would look
OLB=Williams
MLB=Pierce
MLB=Wilson
OLB=Sykes/Spraghan

Then Hayword would be on one end and if we can pick up a good nose guard and another end to replace Pryce we would be aight. All we need is a lug in the middle and 2 average ends to clog up the blocking schemes for these LB's to create havoc. Also we got Chukwurah and he is on the rise with his play. I think we need to look to get a big time D lineman in the draft and since we are a lot deeper at LB then we are at D line this would help. I don;t think that the 3-4 will be our base defense but it will be used a lot more then it has been in years past. Obviously the management for the broncos see something good in it so why not give it a try.

10:18 AM  
Anonymous DBOMB said...

i think under consideration is very different to we are definitely changing to 3-4 but never mind, personally i think the coaches are just interested in how it would fit the current personnel and in particular evaluate the successes of NE in their 3-4 scheme, doesnt mean we will definitely switch

switching to 3-4, we possibly have the linebackers to do it, but im still worried about say terry pierce playing the inside next to al wilson, that guy hasnt played, we cannot seriously expect a guy to step in and play to a very high level and also im seriously worried about the D line in 3-4, reggie isnt a fit, wont be a fit and cannot play the 3-4, hes a speed rusher, unless he gets converted to OLB, and i dnno if he has the right talent for that, he wont be retained if we convert, trevor pryce is coming back from a seriously injury, we dont know if he'll be the same as he was before, we need a NT and an end opposite pryce if hes healthy, maybe ellis johnson can play the other end spot, but theres still a whole lot of uncertainty there

10:30 AM  
Blogger Jamezwp said...

The 3-4 defense is not the "new" defense that has come along in the last few years so don't think the "offensive teams are going to learn how to defend the 3-4" like Steve said. The Broncos ran the 3-4 all through the 80's with tremendous success. In the early 90's offensive teams were trending towards a more "base" type offense with 2-wr's, 1-te, and 2-rb's. (Example: Cowboys, Packers, and Broncos) Since the late 90's until now, the most successull offensive teams are running a lot of multiple WR set even on running downs. (Example: Rams, Raiders, Colts, Patriots, etc.) The 3-4 is the only way to defend the multiple receiver sets unless you have a very good pass rush out of a nickel package. Or if you have the Ravens defensive personel. I think it is the only way to go, of course saying that "if a team can run both, they will have an advantage" isn't much of a bold statement. You really have to pick a style and run with it. So which one do we want, I say 3-4.

10:35 AM  
Blogger Steve said...

Again, this is one of those really STUPID ass discussions. I could care the hell less if Denver goes with a 3-4, shit then can go with a 1-6, as long as they get it done.

10:46 AM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Steve, Did you eat a bowl of POOP this morning?

10:56 AM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Red, did you eat a bowl of Ignorant cereal this morning?

11:08 AM  
Blogger Jamezwp said...

Steve, I thought this was a blogger where we can talk about sports, team personel, things a team needs to do to get it done. We find it intriguing to debate strategies, maybe dream about unknown possibilities, learn about other peoples perspectives. So far, all I've heard you say is, "leave everything alone" "this is a stupid discussion" "I don't care if they run a 1-6, just as long as they get it done". What kind of thought does that take? What would you prefer to discuss?

Red and I probably are guilty of coming up with some crazy theories and having a little excessive abstract thought, but where in the hell do you stand? What do you suggest our Favorite sports team do to solve their problems? So far the only thing I've heard you say is it doesn't matter, they just need to get it done.

With all due respect, if this were a political debate right now, you would represent the Democratic party because you don't have a stand on anything. You are against change, and you are being a pessimist. I really respect your input so please tell us what you would do to change the situation in Denver.

12:25 PM  
Blogger Jamezwp said...

Steve, I thought this was a blogger where we can talk about sports, team personel, things a team needs to do to get it done. We find it intriguing to debate strategies, maybe dream about unknown possibilities, learn about other peoples perspectives. So far, all I've heard you say is, "leave everything alone" "this is a stupid discussion" "I don't care if they run a 1-6, just as long as they get it done". What kind of thought does that take? What would you prefer to discuss?

Red and I probably are guilty of coming up with some crazy theories and having a little excessive abstract thought, but where in the hell do you stand? What do you suggest our Favorite sports team do to solve their problems? So far the only thing I've heard you say is it doesn't matter, they just need to get it done.

With all due respect, if this were a political debate right now, you would represent the Democratic party because you don't have a stand on anything. You are against change, and you are being a pessimist. I really respect your input so please tell us what you would do to change the situation in Denver.

12:25 PM  
Blogger Jamezwp said...

Steve, I thought this was a blogger where we can talk about sports, team personel, things a team needs to do to get it done. We find it intriguing to debate strategies, maybe dream about unknown possibilities, learn about other peoples perspectives. So far, all I've heard you say is, "leave everything alone" "this is a stupid discussion" "I don't care if they run a 1-6, just as long as they get it done". What kind of thought does that take? What would you prefer to discuss?

Red and I probably are guilty of coming up with some crazy theories and having a little excessive abstract thought, but where in the hell do you stand? What do you suggest our Favorite sports team do to solve their problems? So far the only thing I've heard you say is it doesn't matter, they just need to get it done.

With all due respect, if this were a political debate right now, you would represent the Democratic party because you don't have a stand on anything. You are against change, and you are being a pessimist. I really respect your input so please tell us what you would do to change the situation in Denver.

12:25 PM  
Blogger Jamezwp said...

Steve, I thought this was a blogger where we can talk about sports, team personel, things a team needs to do to get it done. We find it intriguing to debate strategies, maybe dream about unknown possibilities, learn about other peoples perspectives. So far, all I've heard you say is, "leave everything alone" "this is a stupid discussion" "I don't care if they run a 1-6, just as long as they get it done". What kind of thought does that take? What would you prefer to discuss?

Red and I probably are guilty of coming up with some crazy theories and having a little excessive abstract thought, but where in the hell do you stand? What do you suggest our Favorite sports team do to solve their problems? So far the only thing I've heard you say is it doesn't matter, they just need to get it done.

With all due respect, if this were a political debate right now, you would represent the Democratic party because you don't have a stand on anything. You are against change, and you are being a pessimist. I really respect your input so please tell us what you would do to change the situation in Denver.

12:26 PM  
Blogger Jamezwp said...

Steve, I thought this was a blogger where we can talk about sports, team personel, things a team needs to do to get it done. We find it intriguing to debate strategies, maybe dream about unknown possibilities, learn about other peoples perspectives. So far, all I've heard you say is, "leave everything alone" "this is a stupid discussion" "I don't care if they run a 1-6, just as long as they get it done". What kind of thought does that take? What would you prefer to discuss?

Red and I probably are guilty of coming up with some crazy theories and having a little excessive abstract thought, but where in the hell do you stand? What do you suggest our Favorite sports team do to solve their problems? So far the only thing I've heard you say is it doesn't matter, they just need to get it done.

With all due respect, if this were a political debate right now, you would represent the Democratic party because you don't have a stand on anything. You are against change, and you are being a pessimist. I really respect your input so please tell us what you would do to change the situation in Denver.

12:26 PM  
Blogger Jamezwp said...

Steve, I thought this was a blogger where we can talk about sports, team personel, things a team needs to do to get it done. We find it intriguing to debate strategies, maybe dream about unknown possibilities, learn about other peoples perspectives. So far, all I've heard you say is, "leave everything alone" "this is a stupid discussion" "I don't care if they run a 1-6, just as long as they get it done". What kind of thought does that take? What would you prefer to discuss?

Red and I probably are guilty of coming up with some crazy theories and having a little excessive abstract thought, but where in the hell do you stand? What do you suggest our Favorite sports team do to solve their problems? So far the only thing I've heard you say is it doesn't matter, they just need to get it done.

With all due respect, if this were a political debate right now, you would represent the Democratic party because you don't have a stand on anything. You are against change, and you are being a pessimist. I really respect your input so please tell us what you would do to change the situation in Denver.

12:26 PM  
Blogger Jamezwp said...

Steve, I thought this was a blogger where we can talk about sports, team personel, things a team needs to do to get it done. We find it intriguing to debate strategies, maybe dream about unknown possibilities, learn about other peoples perspectives. So far, all I've heard you say is, "leave everything alone" "this is a stupid discussion" "I don't care if they run a 1-6, just as long as they get it done". What kind of thought does that take? What would you prefer to discuss?

Red and I probably are guilty of coming up with some crazy theories and having a little excessive abstract thought, but where in the hell do you stand? What do you suggest our Favorite sports team do to solve their problems? So far the only thing I've heard you say is it doesn't matter, they just need to get it done.

With all due respect, if this were a political debate right now, you would represent the Democratic party because you don't have a stand on anything. You are against change, and you are being a pessimist. I really respect your input so please tell us what you would do to change the situation in Denver.

12:27 PM  
Blogger Jamezwp said...

Steve, I thought this was a blogger where we can talk about sports, team personel, things a team needs to do to get it done. We find it intriguing to debate strategies, maybe dream about unknown possibilities, learn about other peoples perspectives. So far, all I've heard you say is, "leave everything alone" "this is a stupid discussion" "I don't care if they run a 1-6, just as long as they get it done". What kind of thought does that take? What would you prefer to discuss?

Red and I probably are guilty of coming up with some crazy theories and having a little excessive abstract thought, but where in the hell do you stand? What do you suggest our Favorite sports team do to solve their problems? So far the only thing I've heard you say is it doesn't matter, they just need to get it done.

With all due respect, if this were a political debate right now, you would represent the Democratic party because you don't have a stand on anything. You are against change, and you are being a pessimist. I really respect your input so please tell us what you would do to change the situation in Denver.

12:27 PM  
Blogger Jamezwp said...

Steve, I thought this was a blogger where we can talk about sports, team personel, things a team needs to do to get it done. We find it intriguing to debate strategies, maybe dream about unknown possibilities, learn about other peoples perspectives. So far, all I've heard you say is, "leave everything alone" "this is a stupid discussion" "I don't care if they run a 1-6, just as long as they get it done". What kind of thought does that take? What would you prefer to discuss?

Red and I probably are guilty of coming up with some crazy theories and having a little excessive abstract thought, but where in the hell do you stand? What do you suggest our Favorite sports team do to solve their problems? So far the only thing I've heard you say is it doesn't matter, they just need to get it done.

With all due respect, if this were a political debate right now, you would represent the Democratic party because you don't have a stand on anything. You are against change, and you are being a pessimist. I really respect your input so please tell us what you would do to change the situation in Denver.

12:27 PM  
Blogger Jamezwp said...

Steve, I thought this was a blogger where we can talk about sports, team personel, things a team needs to do to get it done. We find it intriguing to debate strategies, maybe dream about unknown possibilities, learn about other peoples perspectives. So far, all I've heard you say is, "leave everything alone" "this is a stupid discussion" "I don't care if they run a 1-6, just as long as they get it done". What kind of thought does that take? What would you prefer to discuss?

Red and I probably are guilty of coming up with some crazy theories and having a little excessive abstract thought, but where in the hell do you stand? What do you suggest our Favorite sports team do to solve their problems? So far the only thing I've heard you say is it doesn't matter, they just need to get it done.

With all due respect, if this were a political debate right now, you would represent the Democratic party because you don't have a stand on anything. You are against change, and you are being a pessimist. I really respect your input so please tell us what you would do to change the situation in Denver.

12:27 PM  
Blogger Jamezwp said...

oops, the dumb ass comment wouldn't freakin post!

12:27 PM  
Blogger Jamezwp said...

Steve, I thought this was a blogger where we can talk about sports, team personel, things a team needs to do to get it done. We find it intriguing to debate strategies, maybe dream about unknown possibilities, learn about other peoples perspectives. So far, all I've heard you say is, "leave everything alone" "this is a stupid discussion" "I don't care if they run a 1-6, just as long as they get it done". What kind of thought does that take? What would you prefer to discuss?

Red and I probably are guilty of coming up with some crazy theories and having a little excessive abstract thought, but where in the hell do you stand? What do you suggest our Favorite sports team do to solve their problems? So far the only thing I've heard you say is it doesn't matter, they just need to get it done.

With all due respect, if this were a political debate right now, you would represent the Democratic party because you don't have a stand on anything. You are against change, and you are being a pessimist. I really respect your input so please tell us what you would do to change the situation in Denver.

12:27 PM  
Blogger Jamezwp said...

Steve, I thought this was a blogger where we can talk about sports, team personel, things a team needs to do to get it done. We find it intriguing to debate strategies, maybe dream about unknown possibilities, learn about other peoples perspectives. So far, all I've heard you say is, "leave everything alone" "this is a stupid discussion" "I don't care if they run a 1-6, just as long as they get it done". What kind of thought does that take? What would you prefer to discuss?

Red and I probably are guilty of coming up with some crazy theories and having a little excessive abstract thought, but where in the hell do you stand? What do you suggest our Favorite sports team do to solve their problems? So far the only thing I've heard you say is it doesn't matter, they just need to get it done.

With all due respect, if this were a political debate right now, you would represent the Democratic party because you don't have a stand on anything. You are against change, and you are being a pessimist. I really respect your input so please tell us what you would do to change the situation in Denver.

12:27 PM  
Blogger Jamezwp said...

Steve, I thought this was a blogger where we can talk about sports, team personel, things a team needs to do to get it done. We find it intriguing to debate strategies, maybe dream about unknown possibilities, learn about other peoples perspectives. So far, all I've heard you say is, "leave everything alone" "this is a stupid discussion" "I don't care if they run a 1-6, just as long as they get it done". What kind of thought does that take? What would you prefer to discuss?

Red and I probably are guilty of coming up with some crazy theories and having a little excessive abstract thought, but where in the hell do you stand? What do you suggest our Favorite sports team do to solve their problems? So far the only thing I've heard you say is it doesn't matter, they just need to get it done.

With all due respect, if this were a political debate right now, you would represent the Democratic party because you don't have a stand on anything. You are against change, and you are being a pessimist. I really respect your input so please tell us what you would do to change the situation in Denver.

12:27 PM  
Blogger RED said...

I 32nd that! 32nd because James went crazy on the post button. But for real Steve you should sign up for the go Hillary Clinton campaign. You can't bring any solid prrof of why you think Plummer is better then Garcia nor do you have any input on the 3-4

12:55 PM  
Anonymous NN said...

Steve you are a joke. You never agree with anyone and you are just doing it to piss people off. Try having your own opinion instead of just arguing every point you can. You have never made a post where you are for something. Damn Dem!

1:29 PM  
Blogger Steve said...

Wow, James you should really consider deleting some of the 400 entries, but the blog is slow and retarded at times.

Ok - NN, James and Red, let me explain something to you. Now when you are reading this (especially for you Red) have an open mind and possibly re-read it twice just to make sure you catch everything.

1st thing - the 3-4 defense. I think it's a stupid dicussion for a number of reasons, but mainly because I don't care to talk about the "hype" of it. Will this help Denver out? Don't know. When I think about football I don't always care about the formations, which the 3-4 clearly is. I made the comment of they can run a 1-6 as long as they get the job done. That's how I feel. To me the formation doesn't matter as much as getting the right personnel in there. I'm all for going to the 3-4 if we can get 2 additional SOLID LB. Sorry Red, I don't think Pierce and Spraghan/Sykes are top notch as Wilson and the upcoming Williams. Can they be? Probably. I just don't think Denver is ready to effectively run a 3-4 defense as their base defense.

So if you want to talk about the personnel, I'm down to discuss it, otherwise, discussing the 3-4 formation just isn't my bag of tea! Those are my thoughts regarding the 3-4, respect them or not.

Secondly, call me a pessimist or Democrat all you want. NN I argue with everything because of two reasons:

1) I enjoy playing the Devil's advocate. Any debate is about hearing both sides.
2) How boring would it be if we all just agreed to everything? And sorry NN, I have made plenty of posts where I am for something, you're just not reading what I am saying with an open mind. And what exactly does this mean, "Try having your own opinion" - so because I don't agree that Denver should go after Garcia that it isn't my own opinion? For your information, I really don't think Denver should. I've clearly explained my own "opinion" on the 3-4 discussion. If you have any further questions, please let me know.

Now Red...I think I know what is going on in your head. You think that I think Plummer is better then Garcia right? Thought so...WRONG. I never once said Plummer was better. All I have said, on multiple occasions is that Denver would be in the same position if Garcia was a QB here. Let me copy and paste a comment from that post and please read it carefully..."My point is it's all about the wins, all about the playoff wins. Garcia NOR Plummer can get it done for Denver....so again I ask, why replace an average QB with another average QB?" Where does this say that Plummer is better than Garcia?

So, Red, seriously, start having an open-mind about things and really focus on what I am saying, because comments like your "You can't bring any solid prrof of why you think Plummer is better then Garcia" just really make you look like a fucking retard.

James, you said this, "What do you suggest our Favorite sports team do to solve their problems? So far the only thing I've heard you say is it doesn't matter, they just need to get it done." Ummm, did you not read the previous post? In fact, wasn't one of your comments, and I quote, "You cite 2 specific things the Broncos need to do. 1st," In fact, I did cite 5 things the Broncos should do before considering a QB change.

Here is what is boils down to. Neither of us is right when it's concerning Garcia vs. Plummer, I think the disagreement is much more in depth.

I think it's being understood that just because I don't think Denver should change their QB that I think Plummer is the answer.

Let me ask you guys 5 yes or no questions. and I'll even number them for you. I don't want any other answers other then yes or no. Fair enough?

1) Are wins more important to you then turning the ball over?

2) Are playoff wins more important than regular season wins?

3) Would you take a QB who throws more INT but gets the wins vs. a QB who doesn't throw an interception but doesn't get the wins?

4) Is the QB the ONLY person responsible when a team loses?

5) Did you answer yes to all these questions?

If #5 is yes, then I seriously don't see how you think Garcia would be better for Denver. Not saying that Plummer is the answer, but Garcia isn't either. Now if Denver could get a free agent QB who is a proven winner, lets replace Plummer.

But you two are just so hooked on the idea that Plummer is all about the turnovers. I brought up Elway in 89 throwing 18 TD and 18 INT, worse off then Plummer but you were you guys rooting them to replace Elway? No, because he went to the Super Bowl (or you were just too young).

Garcia in 2000 had 4,200 yards, 31 TD and 10 INT, what was his team's record? 6-10.

Guys, it's not about the stats, look beyond the stats. it's about winning when it matters, in the playoffs and NEITHER QB has done that, so what is the purpose of replacing a non-playoff winning QB with another? Just doesn't make any sense. Would you replace your wife for the same wife if you ended up in the same place?

If this were just about the regular season, then sure, lets go with Garcia. He will obviously have less mistakes, may even win a few more regular season wins. But when I made this argument to Jesse, he coped and said "then atleast we wouldn't have to play Indy." Wow man, what a fucking copout. I bet you're one of those fucks who also says, "I'd rather not make it to the playoffs then to get spanked in the 1st round"

9:05 PM  
Anonymous nn said...

I'd like to point out that I had nothing to do with the comment above posted by "NN".

Carry on, gentlemen.

8:54 AM  
Anonymous EDGEWOODDICK said...

THE BEST DEFENSE IS 46 BEAR

11:42 AM  
Blogger RED said...

I want to talk about your 5 questions: 1st of all you only give us the option to answer yes or no because you don't want to hear that you are wrong.

1) Are wins more important to you then turning the ball over?
A)Of course wins are more important then turning over the ball you cracker jack but if you turn the ball over you are gonna lose, take a look at the top teams in +/- turnover rate, yep they made it to the super bowl and the teams who didn't turn the ball over as much WON games so that is a pretty idiotic question to ask their Stevie.
2) Are playoff wins more important than regular season wins?
A) Yea of couse they are but you have to win regular season games to get to the playoffs & you also need to get a higher seed if you want better position to win playoff games. IE: Don't match yourself up with the Colts in the 1st round, or atleast get home field and play them on your won turf.
3) Would you take a QB who throws more INT but gets the wins vs. a QB who doesn't throw an interception but doesn't get the wins?
A) Who are you refering to Steve Jake Plummer and Jeff Garcia? Well Jeff does have twice as many regular season wins then Plummer and they are tied with one win in the playoffs.
4) Is the QB the ONLY person responsible when a team loses?
No, but like anyone on the team they take the heat for the loss and yes they can single handedly lose a game. Comes with the job Stevo!
5) Did you answer yes to all these questions?

I answered all these question! Yes, No... Whatever i answered them.

3:12 PM  
Blogger Jamezwp said...

Steve, I completley understand your point, and you have found some interesting stats to help make your point. However, your point is predicated on the fact that Plummer is a winner, and he helps to win games. But when I asked you (on IM) what Jake Plummer has done to directly contribute to a win, you agreed that he has done nothing. Can you remember one single game where Jake Plummer has carried the team with his abilities alone? I can't. All the games won by the Broncos under Jake Plummer have been a product of a very strong running game (over 2300 yards in 2004) and a solid, bend but don't break to much defense. However, I can vividly remember several games where the Broncos lost the game based on Jake Plummers mental, and physical errors. By that rational, I beleive if we would of had a different QB during that same time, somebody who can run a bootleg, somebody who has the ability to throw effectively from the pocket, and somebody who doesn't make as many mental errors, it would result in more wins. I personally think Jeff Garcia fits that profile. More wins would lead to better playoff situations, and maybe even a playoff win.

The main reason why I am not on the Plummer bandwagon (although I will support the Broncos through anything), is when he came here to Denver we all understood that he was going to make a certain amount of mistakes. However, the payoff was suppost to be that those mistakes were going to be offset by his ability to take over a game at anytime and be the best player on the field. I haven't seen that yet. Jake was suppost to be a Jeckle/Hyde quarterback, we've seen his Jeckle, but we haven't seen his Hyde. Jake Plummer has done nothing to improve the Denver Broncos, in 2000 they went 11-5 and lost in the first round under Greise. They are no better off now under Plummer even with a better defense, and an equally solid running game.

To answer your question.
1. Are wins more important to you than turning the ball over?

Turnovers are the main factor in winning any game. Fortunatly for the Broncos, they have been talented enough to overcome the multitude of turnovers forced by Jake Plummer to win some games. But if those turnovers were reduced, don't you think they would win more games? Since you are calling Jake a winner, prove to me what he has done to help win a game with abilities that Garcia doesn't have.

3:15 PM  
Blogger RED said...

Haa so I guess you answered yes to all the questions Steve and you believe that the QB is the only responsible player for a loss. Geesh man that's Ice Cold!

Hey and as for the resular season not being as inportant as a playoff game, dude every game is important in the NFL. It's not like hockey,baseball or basketball where a team that loses 70 games can get in the playoffs. They are all important in the NFL baby! Any athlete will tell you that.. You gotta win the next game or the game at the moment, nobody thinks playoffs in week one ya Chaplin Charlie!

3:16 PM  
Blogger Steve said...

James, you say that my point is predicated on the fact that Plummer is a winner, essentially, isn't yours the same thinking Garcia is? I cannot deny that Garcia in Denver here will make fewer mistakes; in fact if Garcia were here last year, Denver would probably be 12-4 instead of 10-6. You guys also bring up how seedings in the playoffs are important…they are, they are, BUT is it absolutely necessary to have home field advantage in order to win in the playoffs? Do I have to share all the success stories of home field advantage teams in the past, including the 15-1 Steelers?

But really thinking about it James, I don’t know where you came up with the conclusion that my point is predicated on the fact that Plummer is a winner. This is what I know that is absolute truth – in his two seasons in Denver, he has taken the Broncos to the playoffs, which included back-to-back 10-6 seasons. You also bring up the 11-5 season with Griese, which he tossed 19 TD and 4 INT, but if you think back to that season, you’ll also remember that Griese was injured against the Raiders and Ferotte started against the Ravens in the playoffs.

This is what I think it boils down to – you guys believe that less turnovers, more regular season wins is going to equal playoff wins. I just don’t see Garcia getting that last part with the playoff wins. He hasn’t proven anything before, and quite frankly those were some damn good SF teams he had. Don’t make this out to be that I am backing up Plummer, but I just find it really difficult to replace Plummer with a QB that couldn’t hack it in Cleveland. The guy just has way too much baggage, troubles off the field. I mean hell, before he even stepped onto the field in Cleveland, he was calling out his coaches and players, no wonder why TO said he was gay!

8:31 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

In a game winning drive, I wouldn't even want Garcia near the damn ball. He just doesn't have that special comeback ability which u cant coach and theres team chemistry. He'd make a nice backup. As for the 3-4, I think the Broncs need to mix it up way more on D. Try every D, make the O react to u not the other way around.

10:21 PM  
Blogger Jamezwp said...

Well, you just said it yourself! Wouldn't you rather be 12-4 than 10-6?
A record of 12-4 is an improvement over 10-6, and that's the damn point to this discusion; how to improve the Broncos. There's nothing left to say. If your happy with 10-6, fine! I'm not, I want to see 12-4, and then we'll see what happens in the playoffs.

On a side note: If your waiting for the personel to become the main reason for an improvement to the defense, your going to be waiting a long time. If you look at the Patriots defensive personel during this years playoffs, it wasn't that they had superior players. They damn near shut the mighty Colts out without their top two corners and without their best d-lineman.
We are in disagreement that the game to you is all about personel, and not about formations.
To me, it's all about formations, disguised packages, preperation, game planning, etc. I couldn't give a rats ass about personel, (except if you have a QB that throws 20 int's a year). It is nice to see who they will pick up, but football isn't about the players as much is it is about the strategy. Why do you think I whip Red's ass at Madden all the time, I mean I could be the Cardinals, and I'll beat him when he's the 1988 49'ers. It's all about strategy man.

8:43 AM  
Blogger Steve said...

I would rather be 12-4 instead of 10-6, but then again I'd rather be 15-1 then 12-4. But it's not about the regular season at this point. Plummer has taken us there 2 out of 2 times...in order to be an elite team, it's not about being 15-1 then losing in the first round, it's about winning in the playoffs. I'd rather be 10-6 and win in the playoffs then 12-4 and lose in the first round. Denver is knocking right on the door step of getting deeper into the playoffs, Plummer may not get us through that door, but Garcia won't either. That's what I just don't understand about you two wanting Garcia instead of Plummer. Just seems like you guys just care about the regular season more then the playoffs. Garcia has proven NOTHING in his career that he can carry a team deep into the playoffs. I mean really guys; you're talking about two QB's, Plummer and Garcia who really aren't good for Denver. Why would you want to replace a QB who isn't good for Denver with another? Can't we make this argument over another QB that is decent? I'd love to move on without Plummer, but not with Garcia running the show.

And about the 3-4, guess you and I just view football differently. Your example of Madden is kind of lame, since the computer is controlling the play of 10 guys on both sides of the ball. I can somewhat agree that football is based around strategy, game planning, etc, but when it boils down to it, isn’t it about execution? Why do you give exceptions to QB’s who throw 20 INT in 1 season? What if it’s the game planning, strategy, preparation, etc? To me it just doesn’t make sense. I think with your statement there you just really contradicted your thoughts on the whole argument. Shit man, 1 less fumble by Q Griffin and 1 made FG by Elam and Denver is 12-4 this past season. Guess your “exception” about a QB throwing 20 INT in one season should have caused Denver to get rid of Elway too right? Because in 85 didn’t he throw for more then 20 INT? In fact, not once in Elway’s career did he throw less than 10 INT, yet 5 Super Bowl (2 wins) later, you’re dogging a QB because of the amount of INT. Now I’m not comparing Plummer and Elway, so don’t get me wrong, but just because of the high INT totals, doesn’t mean it should be an immediate cut.

So again, I throw this out to you – make this argument about a QB that is worthy of running this Denver offense. If the game is about formations, strategy, preparations, etc, then why not blame the coaches for Jakes 20 INT? Oh that’s right, it’s about EXECUTION. The coaching staff can only put you in the right position to make the play, but if the player doesn’t make the play…that’s not preparation, that’s not strategy, etc, that is execution. Execution is about the player and the player is personnel.

9:11 AM  
Anonymous Taco John said...

Despite the qb "clearly" not being the issue? Are you kidding me?

You don't throw a league leading 20 interceptions in a season and get away scott free with "clearly" not being the issue. And if throwing 20 INTs isn't a problem, then what is?

Jake OWNS each and every interception he throws. Nobody else owns them. Jake owns them.

I gave Brian Griese the benefit of a doubt because his blind side protection was a back-up center converted into a left tackle, and by mid-season his receiving corpse wat thinner than Pat Bowlen's hair, using 7th and 8th string guys. Jake has none of these excuses. He's got great protection. He's got great mobility. He's got a good receiving crew to work with, though he could use that elusive third wide-out... but it's gotten nowhere near as bad as what Griese had to work with some Novembers.

But this isn't about what Griese had or didn't have. This isn't about, and shouldn't be about Griese at all. This is about Jake.

I don't believe we're going to win a Superbowl with him. I can't watch game after game of inconsistent ball and just homer it up that all these turnovers don't matter. They do! They cost us momentum. They cost us game plans. They cost us points. And they eventually cost us seasons.

I get it if you like Jake. He's a hell of a likable guy. But don't tell me that he's "clearly" not the problem. That's just homer talk. He CLEARLY has problems. He's leading the league in interceptions. That is CLEARLY a problem.

I think he's as steady a caretaker as money can buy. A fallback to the Craig Morton days. He'll go out of Denver with a favorable memory. But unless something drastic happens up in his head, it won't be as a champion. That's just my feeling based on the two years that we've seen. Maybe the third year's a charm. I wish that his contract was structured so that we'd find out if it is before we had to commit many more years to a guy who still hasn't proven that he's left his Arizona problems behind.

1:30 PM  
Blogger Steve said...

You're absolutely right Taco John, Plummer is a problem on the Broncos squad, but I also think there are other areas we need to improve too if we want to go back to the Super Bowl. Will Plummer lead us there? No, I don't think he will, but the argument here isn't me being a "homer", if we could get rid of Plummer and bring in someone worthy to run the offense, I'm all for it! But the argument is about if Garcia is the man to do it. What are your thoughts Taco John about Plummer vs Garcia?

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11:34 PM  

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