Wednesday, February 16, 2005

I'd rather have Jeff Garcia then Jake Plummer



Now that the Browns have released Jeff Garcia I think the Broncos should take some interest in picking him up. I think that Jeff Garcia would flourish in the Mike Shanahan system that the Broncos have in place. Jeff Garcia is a much better running quarterback who would benefit greatly from the boot plays that the Broncos system would provide him with. Not only is he a better runner then Plummer but makes smarter decisions then Jake Plummer does. Let's take a look at the numbers. Jeff Garcia has thrown for 123 TD's and only 65 interceptions. To go along with those numbers Jeff Garcia has rushed 1730 yards and 23 TD's. Not too bad for 6 seasons. Now let's take a look at Plummers stats. Plummer has played 8 season in the NFL and has thrown more TD's then Garcia with 132, but he also thrown 141 interceptions. That's more then twice the amount of interceptions Jeff Garcia has thrown. On the ground Plummer has ran for 1590 yards and 14 TD's. Still less then Garcia in that category. As for fumbles, Garcia has fumbled the ball 20 times in his career to Plummers 31. This morning Steve and I were discussing the 2 quarterbacks and Steve said he's rather have Plummer. I just can't agree.

21 Comments:

Blogger Steve said...

This comment has been removed by a blog administrator.

9:13 AM  
Blogger Steve said...

Yes, I said I'd rather have Plummer then Garcia. I'm going to bring up two points here, I'd have more, but Red said I can't use the "excuse" that Plummer spent 6 of those seasons in Arizona whereas Garcia spent 5 of his seasons in SF with great talent surrounding him. So with that being said...

Red, you bring up very interesting stats. Sure Garcia has better stats then Plummer, can't deny that and since I can't use the reasoning with the previous teams they played for, I'll say this...

How many Super Bowls did Garcia win? How many Super Bowls did Plummer win? That's right - both are even.

I believe you also said, that Garcia has more playoff wins then Plummer. WRONG! Both only have 1 win, in fact, Garcia only took that 49ers team to the playoffs twice in his 5 seasons. And we are talking about a 49ers team that had a 1,200 yard Back in 2001 (Hearst) and TO with 93 catches for 1,400 yards, and the season they did win a playoff game - oh lets think back...a 39-38 victory over the Giants, because of a botched snap by the stupid long snapper for the Giants for a game winning Field Goal. Either way, they won that game, but that season (2002), the 49ers had Hearst who rushed for close to a 1000 yards and TO again with a 100 receptions and 1,300 yards.

Excellent teams, yet he still couldn't take those teams far in the playoffs. Shall I bring up his stellar season last year in Cleveland?

Plummer, comes to a good team (like the old 49ers Garcia had) and takes the team to the playoffs twice, loses both times sure, but how many more playoff wins does Garcia have then Plummer?

My point is you're trying to compare two people that is basically impossible to compare. You're just a Plummer hater, and that's ok - your OPINION is Garcia would be a better fit in this system. Yet this morning Red try to argue that is was "fact" - PROVE IT!

You know I hope Denver does go after Garcia. This way it's a win-win situation for me. If Garcia comes in here and performs poorly, I win this stupid argument. If he comes in here and wins the Super Bowl, well being a Bronco fan, I will be totally ecstatic, wrong on the argument, but atleast I'll get a chance to watch the parade downtown.

9:16 AM  
Blogger CosmicPal said...

I think Jeff Garcia would be an excellent back-up to Plummer. Plummer having been in Denver a couple of years now would remain the starter until Garcia would be given the chance to unseat him should Plummer plays unproductively. You have to remember, Denver went to the Playoffs and you don't change what is not exactly broken right now.

But, Garcia would fit in nicely with Denver's offensive system. Maybe drawing more of the West Coast scheme he's so familiar with, and if I'm not mistaken- the type of system Shanny himself hails from.

Not sure if Garcia would unseat Plummer right away or at all, but he would give Denver a potent QB combination.

9:25 AM  
Blogger Steve said...

I agree Cosmic. I think Garcia would make a nice fit here in Denver, though I'm not sure if he will do "better" then Plummer. Better to me isn't about your stats. I'd rather have a Trent Dilfer here with shitty stats, but a team that wins the Super Bowl.
Denver isn't losing these games because of a QB. If that was Denver's problem then sure I'd like to bring Garcia in, but Denver has so many more issues, Plummer just isn't in the top 5.

9:29 AM  
Blogger Steve said...

Let me ask you a question Red - and be open-minded about this. What is more important, stats or winning? Because you say Garcia is better than Plummer - but really only better in Stats, not wins (atleast playoff wins where it counts).

9:57 AM  
Blogger RED said...

If you go by over all wins Garcia wins that one too. Yes they both have the same amount of playoff wins and that doesn't answer any arguments. I'm going right down the line comparing the two. Garcia has a better regular season record, they are tied in the playoffs with amount of wins so what's next to look at STATS. That is how you compare Quarterbacks if you can't compare them with wins. And you talk about how Plummer was on a crappy team, well being on a crappy team doesn't force him to throw over 100 interceptions. It doesn't matter what team Plummer is on he is going to make stupid mistakes with the football. We've all seen him do it. He makes bad decisions plain and simple. He hasn't changed nor will he.

10:53 AM  
Blogger Steve said...

I guess I forgot that Garcia doesn't make stupid decisions. Guess his 9 interceptions this year (half season basically) were "smarter" decisions. You also answered my question - guess Stats are important.

This reminds me of a previous argument regarding Drew Brees. Why replace an average Qb (Plummer) with another average QB (Brees,Garcia)? Where does this help Denver? Why are stats so important to you? That's really troubling to me considering you call yourself a Broncos fan. I figured you were about the wins. And if you are about the wins, why aren't we comparing free agent defensive lineman, or another solid LB, perhaps a solid safety, or trying to figure out which RB we should go with next season. NoooooOOOOOoooo, you blame it all on Plummer and want to replace a non-playoff-winning QB with another non-winning-playoff QB.
What's the sense in that? All your doing is replacing a working TV with a flat panel TV - may look better, but getting you the same results.

You still have yet to say anything about how Garcia would "flourish" in this system. You've given nothing to back up your claim that Garcia is "better"

Here is my final straw - Who is going to be the starting QB in Denver next season? Won't be Brees, won't be Garcia - you got it! Plummer! Right or wrong, no way to prove Garcia is better then Plummer unless they were both in the same system, same players, same everything (obviously can't happen).

Here's some more food for thought - wonder how many less interceptions/more touchdowns Plummer would have had if his receivers actually caught the ball?

Amazing his two seasons in Denver he has 42 TD and 27 TD - imagine 6 full seasons with the coaching staff here in Denver and the talent, would be like 126 TD and 80 Int...not GREAT stats, but you seem to care so much about his previous playing days in AZ by bringing up his career stats.

For argument sake, lets only discuss stats from their current team...

You know what's funny, is that Red wants to replace Plummer with a QB that was cut after 1 season with a sorry Browns team. HAHAHA

11:08 AM  
Anonymous Rich said...

Garcia would be a great BACKUP to Jake and not the savior of
the Broncos. I think we should have got Kerry Collins when he was
available but Garcia is an Even Better candidate. A solid
backup QB is essential for any team, I think the Broncos should go for
it as an insurance policy at least. Don't read too much into stats and
things, Elway didn't always have the best stats but he did have the
drive to win any game he was involved in. Stats are just numbers on
paper, Determination and clutch skill are immeasureable.

12:50 PM  
Blogger R. D. Baker said...

This comment has been removed by a blog administrator.

5:35 PM  
Blogger R. D. Baker said...

Unless the Broncos also make a trade for Terrell Owens, I don't think Garcia's a good pickup. Garcia is nothing without TO.

5:37 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Garcia better than Plummer??? HA!

Dude, I think Griese is a better QB than Garcia (and SI agrees), so should be try to Griese then, too?

All the QBs better than Plummer aren't going to any new teams any time soon...

7:58 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

^^^^
...That's supposed to read, "So should we try to get Greise."

-nn

7:59 PM  
Blogger Steve said...

And Griese wasn't all that bad, he lacked the arm strength for any sort of vertical passing attack, but he has a nice touch, very solid on the short 1-15 yard passes, just lacks the deep ball arm strength and mobility.

10:12 AM  
Blogger Jamezwp said...

Certainly Both Garcia and Plummer are not top notch, save the franchise type quarterbacks. Arizona or not, Terrell Owens or not, Running game or not, whatever, every player demonstrates certain pro's and con's throughout their career no matter what "system" they are in. It is obvious that both QB's are very mobile and Jake Plummer has a special gift to make the occasional nice throw while he is on the run. On the flip side if Jake is demobilized and kept in the pocket he has demonstrated that he is largely an ineffective pocket passer, Arizona or Not. One can also say that Jake Plummer's decision making as it pertains to split second decision making (i.e. at San Diego this year and his goal line decision to throw a fade route to Rod Smith on first and goal which resulted in a back breaking, home playoff game ending, divisional race ending, interception) further demonstrated the inability for Jake to change his "Arizona Cardinals" persona. Do not blame Jake Plummers lack of impressive career statistics on his days with Arizona because even in the sytem of Denver he still manages to throw 20 interceptions a year. If you can not see Jake Plummer as one of the top five reasons why the Broncos are not in the elite class of teams you are not watching the same Broncos team I am. As for what Garcia has demonstrated, he does have impressive stats. Terrell or not, he did have to throw the ball to Terrell, which means he had to avoid throwing the ball to the opposing team to get the ball to Terrell. It isn't as though he just had to underhand toss the ball to Terrell like you do to a child, no he had to throw the ball downfield to his own teammate. Something that doesn't happen with much success here in Denver. Jake is very good at running a bootleg and throwing an 8 yard out pattern to his T.E., but is that really that much of a pro to keep this guy around for ever. What happens to Jake in a couple of years when he loses his mobilization from old age? How on earth will he ever throw a touchdown?

10:17 AM  
Blogger Jamezwp said...

Certainly Both Garcia and Plummer are not top notch, save the franchise type quarterbacks. Arizona or not, Terrell Owens or not, Running game or not, whatever, every player demonstrates certain pro's and con's throughout their career no matter what "system" they are in. It is obvious that both QB's are very mobile and Jake Plummer has a special gift to make the occasional nice throw while he is on the run. On the flip side if Jake is demobilized and kept in the pocket he has demonstrated that he is largely an ineffective pocket passer, Arizona or Not. One can also say that Jake Plummer's decision making as it pertains to split second decision making (i.e. at San Diego this year and his goal line decision to throw a fade route to Rod Smith on first and goal which resulted in a back breaking, home playoff game ending, divisional race ending, interception) further demonstrated the inability for Jake to change his "Arizona Cardinals" persona. Do not blame Jake Plummers lack of impressive career statistics on his days with Arizona because even in the sytem of Denver he still manages to throw 20 interceptions a year. If you can not see Jake Plummer as one of the top five reasons why the Broncos are not in the elite class of teams you are not watching the same Broncos team I am. As for what Garcia has demonstrated, he does have impressive stats. Terrell or not, he did have to throw the ball to Terrell, which means he had to avoid throwing the ball to the opposing team to get the ball to Terrell. It isn't as though he just had to underhand toss the ball to Terrell like you do to a child, no he had to throw the ball downfield to his own teammate. Something that doesn't happen with much success here in Denver. Jake is very good at running a bootleg and throwing an 8 yard out pattern to his T.E., but is that really that much of a pro to keep this guy around for ever. What happens to Jake in a couple of years when he loses his mobilization from old age? How on earth will he ever throw a touchdown?

10:17 AM  
Blogger Jamezwp said...

Certainly Both Garcia and Plummer are not top notch, save the franchise type quarterbacks. Arizona or not, Terrell Owens or not, Running game or not, whatever, every player demonstrates certain pro's and con's throughout their career no matter what "system" they are in. It is obvious that both QB's are very mobile and Jake Plummer has a special gift to make the occasional nice throw while he is on the run. On the flip side if Jake is demobilized and kept in the pocket he has demonstrated that he is largely an ineffective pocket passer, Arizona or Not. One can also say that Jake Plummer's decision making as it pertains to split second decision making (i.e. at San Diego this year and his goal line decision to throw a fade route to Rod Smith on first and goal which resulted in a back breaking, home playoff game ending, divisional race ending, interception) further demonstrated the inability for Jake to change his "Arizona Cardinals" persona. Do not blame Jake Plummers lack of impressive career statistics on his days with Arizona because even in the sytem of Denver he still manages to throw 20 interceptions a year. If you can not see Jake Plummer as one of the top five reasons why the Broncos are not in the elite class of teams you are not watching the same Broncos team I am. As for what Garcia has demonstrated, he does have impressive stats. Terrell or not, he did have to throw the ball to Terrell, which means he had to avoid throwing the ball to the opposing team to get the ball to Terrell. It isn't as though he just had to underhand toss the ball to Terrell like you do to a child, no he had to throw the ball downfield to his own teammate. Something that doesn't happen with much success here in Denver. Jake is very good at running a bootleg and throwing an 8 yard out pattern to his T.E., but is that really that much of a pro to keep this guy around for ever. What happens to Jake in a couple of years when he loses his mobilization from old age? How on earth will he ever throw a touchdown?

10:17 AM  
Blogger RED said...

Heck yea I couldnt agree more. Jake is gonna be crap in a few years without his mobility. Atleast with the pocket passing Garcia the durability of his career will last much longer.

10:22 AM  
Blogger Steve said...

I will give Garcia one truth over Plummer - his pocket presence is developed.

And you bring up some interesting truths James. Here is what I see what is wrong with Denver from being one of the elite teams.

Certainly I don't feel that Plummer is the right QB to bring Denver in the same field as the Patriots, but I think there are other areas that are more demanding right now then replacing a QB. Certainly we need better pressure from the defensive line. The defense has been really lacking creating turnovers (one of the key traits of any elite team) - I think the linebackers could use a little upgrade. Certainly Winson is a keeper as well as Williams, but we really need a solid 3rd LB. Our secondary could also use some work. Sure we have Champ (which Jesse also loves to bash), but our safety help needs upgrading. Lynch is solid against the run but has been caught out of position on multiple occasions on the deep ball. I also think we need to get a WR in here, a solid #2, I'll even say a #3 to move into the #2 role when Smith retires. Smith is over his prime, he still produces and all, but I think he has 1, maybe 2 years left in him. Then what, Lelie, Watts as the #1 and #2? I like both, but Lelie still has a lot to prove, and really Watts is a long way from that. Also, I think Denver needs to stick with 1 RB next season. It's hard to get a RB in the groove if he is sharing time. Either stick with Droughns or Bell, give that RB the confidence he needs to be successful. This also hurt the play calling a bit I think, not having the confidence to go for it on 4th and inches.

So those are my top 5 things to improve upon. Plummer would probably fall to #6. I just see how well Plummer plays when we are playing with the lead, or getting a big turnover, etc. Is Plummer the answer? No, never said he is nor will I, but I don't think Garcia is either. I don't think bring in Garcia would make Denver one those elite teams without first getting help in the other postions.

10:37 AM  
Blogger Steve said...

And my final thought

If you think Garcia can get us the wins with less "mistakes", lets examine his season in 2000 which Garcia tossed for 4,200 yards, 31 TD and 10 INT, their regular season record was 6-10.

During his playoff years in SF, 2001 had 3,500 yards passing, 32 TD and 12 INT yet lost in the first round

2002, 3,300 yards passing 21 TD and 10 INT, still didn't make the NFC Championship game.

Plummer in his 98 season taking AZ to his only playoff win finished 9-7 regular season, 3,700 yards passing, 17 TD and 20 INT

With all that said, I seriously want you to prove that Garcia can come into Denver and win during the playoffs?

I don't care about the regular season because I all ready agree that Garcia would have better regular season stats and even may give Denver a better record (from a 10-6 team to either a 11-5 or 12-4) but how will this help Denver in the post season? Shit Garcia went 12-4 in 2001 yet still lost 1st round.

My point is it's all about the wins, all about the playoff wins. Garcia NOR Plummer can get it done for Denver....so again I ask, why replace an average QB with another average QB?

I even tossed this out, shit in the 89 season, Elway had 18 TD and 18 INT - the difference was he WON in the playoffs. Garcia or Plummer haven't done that, so why would you think Garcia is "better" for Denver?

Shit Trent Dilfer won the Super Bowl with the Ravens throwing for 1,500 yards and 12 TD and 11 INT.

It's all about winning the Super Bowl, in order to achieve that we need to win in the playoffs, in order to get to the playoffs we need to win in the regular season (which we've done over and over), lets start winning playoff games by improving our team (defensive help, WR help) etc. We didn't lose to the Colts because of poor offensive play. Shit, Plummer almost had 300 yards passing, 2 TD and only 1 INT. The defense is what killed us.

All I am asking is that you guys have an open-mind and don't put the Broncos' woes on 1 specific player. Bringing in a new QB won't make Denver a better team. Inproving pieces here and there will.

11:56 AM  
Blogger Jamezwp said...

that's some good thought Steve. You cite 2 specific things the Broncos need to do. 1st, improve Defense. Let's take a look.
2003 season. Lost to Colts in 1st round of Playoffs.
They then aquire the best cornerback in the league, aquire an all-pro saftey, spent their 1st round choice on a linebacker, bring in some veteran defensive linemen.
-Result-
2004 season. Lost to Colts in 1st round of Playoffs.

Hence the discusion on changing the defense to a 3-4 which you called a "stupid discussion"

1:41 PM  
Blogger Steve said...

Hence the comment I also made that Peyton again scorched one of the best 3-4 defense in the league last year when they beat San Diego.

It's personnel and making plays, which the defense still has yet to do.

9:06 PM  

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